Curse

big mr furious · Sep 13, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Even though this is one of the finest and well thought out games I have played there are several game mechanics that I fell would be better if changed. One of the most annoying is that one can only get into the under world of fissure of woe when their country has favor. PVP and PVE have been treated as two seperate worlds by the game untill this. Builds and even players play better in role playing than in the arena and visa versa. Most characters in the arena are infact PVP only characters. This treatment of PVP and PVE as seperate entities is good for the game. With the restriction on the underworld and fissure based on the arena there is little most PVE people can do to get them open again. It's not like some one who wants to get into the undeworld will simply get a group together and head off to the hall of hero's and clean the place up. Maybe but not likely.

Rhunex · Sep 13, 2005, 11:16 PM // 23:16

How is this a suggestion? If you have a great PvE player ready for UW or FoW, then all you need to do is go to your character screen, make a PvP character, make them as good as you can, and fight. That or you can use your PvE character. Really when it comes down to it, if you have the best items, the right build, you don't need a PvP only character to be good. A PvE player with a foci that adds 1 to their favored skill with only 11% really isn't going to tip the scale against the PvP person who's got 20%.

And it's not like this is anything new. It's been like this since GW went gold(maybe before then?) so why complain now like it's something new? If you want to win the HoH for your country, get in a PvP guild, make a set time for everyone to get on, use TS, Vent, or any other voice communication you see fit, and fight. You're not going to win at first. A lot of the people in HoH have played it before, and their experience with it alone will smite you. But if you keep working at it you eventually win. It's really not hard. There's hundreds of chances a day to win.

zehly · Sep 13, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

@The OP
--
Can you provide some suggestion as to what you would consider a better system to be?

big mr furious · Sep 15, 2005, 05:45 AM // 05:45

The only suggestions that i can think of is getting rid of the restrictions on entrance to the underworld or fissure. This or something that involves a 5 minute wait for people in countries without favor and none to those from the country without. This way it would be more of a hinderance for your country to not have favor than a problem in my opinion.

Vangor · Sep 15, 2005, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Personally, I enjoyed Darkness Falls for DaoC a hell of alot, sadly with the system it won't be nearly that but, it holds the same ideal, conquer more towers and your realm can now enter Darkness Falls, those within were allowed to remain in and could RvR (realm versus realm) with people coming in, a few, such as infils and such, would stay in just praying on the opposing sides no matter who owned it.

Though I am sort of with you on the aspect of PvP being seperate from PvE, this is not really a case of joining them, as much as it is a good bonus to winning, they could as soon do nothing, many games have similar. Plus, I do not know a time when I have been actually unable to get into UW, it just is not a big deal when it is gone, or when it is here.

Charcoal Ann · Sep 15, 2005, 10:39 AM // 10:39

You have to remember that America has favor basically all the time (90%) and that Europe and Korea share the other 10% (with about 7% korea). people who don't like the WaW system tend to be European (as when europe gets it is is about 2-3am in europe)
People who like it are usually American.

Americans need to open their eyes to the suffering that the rest of the world bears for the sake of american affluence.

you saud i don't know any time when i can't get in. that either means you are american or a very positive european who works the late shift.
koreans i think basically have it at their peak time so no problems there.

i don't think that totally splitting PvP and PvE would be a good idea but ToPK does need rethought as americans have had exclusive access rescently.

the addition of SF does a lot to make things better. giving everyone a high lvl area to kill stuff.

burai · Sep 15, 2005, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhunex

How is this a suggestion? If you have a great PvE player ready for UW or FoW, then all you need to do is go to your character screen, make a PvP character, make them as good as you can, and fight. That or you can use your PvE character. Really when it comes down to it, if you have the best items, the right build, you don't need a PvP only character to be good. A PvE player with a foci that adds 1 to their favored skill with only 11% really isn't going to tip the scale against the PvP person who's got 20%.

And it's not like this is anything new. It's been like this since GW went gold(maybe before then?) so why complain now like it's something new? If you want to win the HoH for your country, get in a PvP guild, make a set time for everyone to get on, use TS, Vent, or any other voice communication you see fit, and fight. You're not going to win at first. A lot of the people in HoH have played it before, and their experience with it alone will smite you. But if you keep working at it you eventually win. It's really not hard. There's hundreds of chances a day to win.

I thought to op was suggesting removing the requirement for your region to have favour before gaining access to FoW or UW. Many people (myself included) don't play PvP, but still want access to the fissure and underworld.

/signed

Medion · Sep 15, 2005, 11:04 AM // 11:04

I think it`s good that PvE and PvP aren`t splitsed;

I mean (for european ppl speaking) you would get bored when you can go in there all the time. And for the ppl who are PvP, they have something to fight for.

Vangor · Sep 15, 2005, 11:15 AM // 11:15

I am American and I know we have it a hell of alot, but, I think the problem needs to be readdressed not for losing this feature, I enjoy the feature and do not merely because we have control, but for making shifts easier, like the longer a country holds it the less rounds must be won against them, the less a country holds it, the less rounds they must win against others, both are stacked, while increasing the "overall" number for battles needing to be won to ensure that if one side continues its victories after losing say one, it won't change hands too fast.

Now, what would need to happen is a creation of a contiuum designed on favor of the gods, where at a set amount of raising this, the favor of the gods transfers to you, but they do not move their "eyes" so to speak from the others. As one side (calling it side since America and Korea are countries while Europe is a continent) retains the FotG for longer, then the ability to garner that attention and retain that attention begins to fade, only by a constant supremacy could they keep it with no lapse in victory.

We can give this continuum a number of say 100, notice this does not require 100 favor to be gained, so keep this in mind. It moves on who is at the highest for favor, so at the beginning of the system, no one has held it for any given time, all are on a level playing field, say America wins the first, and gains favor at, let us call it 5, notice that unless all time is equal between the three sides, it will not be at 5 out of 100, nor will it realistically ever be at 100 except in extreme cases. Now the next time if a side were to gain up to 6, let us say Korea gained 10 to make my next example easier, favor would transfer to them, and that is the new area to achieve, though at this time, it kicks America down by a percentage rounded down or up whomever cares, let us say 10% BASE Percentage of the current victors, meaning America drops by 1 down to 4, Korea is at 10, Europe is at 0.

Now, sides are assigned a number based on how long they have held favor, not on wins or losses, simply time holding favor, within an average period of say the last 4 hours, this will also help facilitate victory and loss over a set amount of time, if one team lost a lot earlier and is now winning everything then only recent victories will eventually begin to count. The longer a team has held favor, the harder it becomes to hold it as favor is gained slower, the more of a loss they will sustain during changing of hands, and the more of a loss they will sustain from losing. The shorter a team has held favor, the inverse, favor is gained faster and lost slower. Notice that both of these stack, and are in relation to any side, meaning you can gain favor by defeating one team constantly that is not currently holding the favor, and not lowering their point value at all anyway.

Thus, if America has 100 favor at time of taking it, say Korea had 95, this drops them to 85, while Europe has 65 and has not held it for a noticable amount of time. Next victory against America, Europe gains say 12 points, meaning they are up to 77, while America loses say 6 points, they are down to 94, and still hold favor. Were they to do this once again, they would gain favor at 89 and America would lose favor to 88, though with that change of favor, America and Korea will both, let us say percentage is rounded up, lose 9 points, but America has held it so long to increase that enough to suffer 10 points, while Korea has not held it long enough and only loses 7 points.

Thus, Europe is at 89, America is down to 78, and Korea is at 78 as well. Now, Europe begins holding it for a while, let us say no battles take place for a two hour period (just bear with me), now Europe has a much greater average percentage, America has a fair amount, and Korea has less, next victory Europe claims over Korea, Korea only drops by say 2 points, while Europe only gains say 4 points, we are now at E93, A78, K76.

Notice with the system, favor changing hands is facilitated a lot faster and more often depending on time held, and will remain constantly within a widely varying range, most often I would be considering it to build to around 75-90 points, though the system is sort of flawed because I cannot do all of the math to assure that it doesn't simply even out. Just realize, losses are going to be smaller inherently than victory, and holding it longer makes it more difficult on your side to continue holding it, while it becomes easier for the others to gain it. A side can take favor without ever engaging your side "technically", and can do so with a couple of quick victories, while you may need to achieve 5 victories in a short period of time, though if you have a long lull time between that 3rd and 4th, you may only need the 4th to move you up enough.

Side note, percentage drops are based on the amount of points, I believe it should be this way at least at first thought, at time of acension, which means if you had to get 79 or greater to gain favor, got 85, then it is based off of 85, not say your 76 you had earlier.

A lot of numbers thrown around, but, I hope someone decides to read it, believe me I want balance as much you do.

Kampfkeks · Sep 15, 2005, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Sure thing this system is not flawed... yeaaah... suuuuuure thing. I'm quite sure there are more europeans on the american servers than there are playing on european servers in total. But that is of course not flawed. As the remaining europeans can simply (!) go into the hall and get favor. No problem at all, those screwy europeans need to shut up.

Enough of that, i'm european myself and i refuse to change over to america. And while the situation improved a bit lately, favor is a luxury. And to those saying go and get the hall... well, did you try it yourself? I'm quite sure you will realise real soon that it is not as easy as going in and claiming it. Besiders, i don't want the PVPers to do PVE. So the PVP Folks should not force the PVErs to do PVP.

Vangor · Sep 15, 2005, 12:35 PM // 12:35

I had always considered the Temple to be sort of an extra for those who do want to PvP, those who do not want to PvE can lose the massive storyline, all of the quests, and the interaction outside, now that they have unlockable content, though I am unsure of how this works since I've unlocked most of what I may ever need in PvE.

The only problem is, what PvP aspect are you going to give them to make them want to conquer the Hall besides simply that desire? As great as it is, I will go play an FPS game when my victories are just for victories, when it is an MMO style, I get sick of winning when it means absolutely nothing. PvE is the easiest way to design it, since it is an addition, as opposed to simply difference as an arena or something would be, which does not amount to much, while that addition is far from necessary.

Or perhaps, I could offer a suggestion to that side where both contribute in a similar manner, I'll do that in another topic, titled "Trials of the Gods".

Carinae · Sep 15, 2005, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Just a thought:

How about a new arena at ToA, and to enter UW/FOW your team must win a single round against a team from Europe/Korea (who is attempting to do the same thing as you)

This avoids the favor issue, and also eliminates the need to conquer the top level teams for UW/FOW access.

If you win, you automatically enter UW/FOW (no more 1 plat)
If you lose, you try again. (against another team)

It also basically eliminates solo farming in the UW/FOW!

Kampfkeks · Sep 15, 2005, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Just a thought:

How about a new arena at ToA, and to enter UW/FOW your team must win a single round against a team from Europe/Korea (who is attempting to do the same thing as you)

This avoids the favor issue, and also eliminates the need to conquer the top level teams for UW/FOW access.

If you win, you automatically enter UW/FOW (no more 1 plat)
If you lose, you try again. (against another team)

It also basically eliminates solo farming in the UW/FOW!

And also totally screws over every inventive build that would work in the Underworld but would NEVER do so in a PVP Environment. Come one, how good will for example a geomancer tank do in PVP? Or a Hydromancer with Glyph of Concentration skilled on AoE Interruption? Those will simply get crushed and you'll head down there with the typical "Smiter" build. Great Idea.

Once again could the PVP Crowd please answer me why PVE Content should EVER be dependent on PVP? And vice versa? Let the PVErs play the game to its FULL content if they want to, don't force them into the mind***king PVP Experience there is. With all those wannabe elitists, rank-***res, egomaniacs, morons etc...
PVP is not fun, unless you like playing in an environment of assholes.

/edit:
Stupid Autocensor.
I'd consider asshole more of an offense than rankwho*e -.-

aron searle · Sep 15, 2005, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

PVP is not fun, unless you like playing in an environment of assholes.

nice attitude.

Quote:

Once again could the PVP Crowd please answer me why PVE Content should EVER be dependent on PVP

Once again ill state i am a PVE'r 90%, and i dont see why its always PVE vs PVP.

I think what Anet are trying to promote is PVE'rs to try PVP and visa versa to gain favor.

I have no problem with favor (i did once), my problem is with the unfairness of the way it is won.

There are more americans playing and they have +5 hours peak time gaming than us due to time zones.

We have some good people playing for europe and winning favor, but always it seems to be at around 9 to midnight that we get it during weekdays.

Not really ideal for the majority of us.

Quote:

/edit:
Stupid Autocensor.
I'd consider asshole more of an offense than rankwho*e -.-

Grow up

Plague · Sep 15, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Not sure why UW and FoW are totally locked out unless you have favor. Making it possible to gain entrance by paying even more money seems feasible to me.

I guess it's mainly just a.nets way to try to force PvP and PvE to have a common link in some way.

aron searle · Sep 15, 2005, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

guess it's mainly just a.nets way to try to force PvP and PvE to have a common link in some way.

I think promote is a better word, as you dont NEED to pvp to get in there. you can just wait for someone else to win.

I really cant see this being an issue if it wasnt for the fact we have it around 5-10% of the time or something ridiculus like that.

if we had it say 30-40% of the time, only those who like to complian would still do so.

5-10% favor is just rubbish.

Albino Chocobo · Sep 15, 2005, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vangor

those who do not want to PvE can lose the massive storyline, all of the quests, and the interaction outside, now that they have unlockable content, though I am unsure of how this works since I've unlocked most of what I may ever need in PvE.

So in short, you can be a pure PvPer and have access to all contents, but you can't be a pure PvE player ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vangor

The only problem is, what PvP aspect are you going to give them to make them want to conquer the Hall besides simply that desire?

I don't know. I guess most PvE players are not trying to find a replacement prize, but just saying they'd don't like PvE being limited by PvP.

Most (american) PvPers will just say, go out, and fight for the Favor of the Gods. As previously pointed out in this thread, PvP and PvE are two different beasts. I'm a pure PvE player, with very little experience in PvP. What good will I do ? Best thing for Europe would be for me to move to America. I pity the team that will take me on

I'm sure I could learn, but I bought GW for one good reason : it advertised being geared toward the casual player, which I am. I don't play that much, so it might as well be fun, and well, what little I have seen in PvP didn't seem fun at all. Not the crowd I want to hang with.

So A.net gave us new zones, it's a nice move. Still, I'd like to try Fissure and Underworld a few times, but won't play at 2 a.m. for that. I thought the whole WaW idea was fun on paper, but it ends up being two high-level zones for America only. I won't stop playing over that, but I can't help but feel that, I don't know, Europe and Korea should be given a discount for not having the full game.

stumpy · Sep 15, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Europe and Korea can just as easily take the favour as needed ... they just dont cause we have a boat load of idiots who play all hours of the night cause we are addicted. Dont have to say it ... I just did. Many times before I have seen Korea with the favour but europe was unfortunate because they had it the least. Not to say that they din't have it at all ... they have and quite often they took it before we get off of work. Then they all (not entirely all but alot of them) decided to jump onto our servers in america ... now we have basically knocked 1 of 2 opponents out by having them play with us on our servers ... I dont think they deserve a discount cause its almost a pathetic attempt offering them pity. I would be insulted if I was from Europe or Korea at that. Euro's have alot of pride, from my experience, hence why they rarely ever teamed up previously.

Carinae · Sep 15, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kampfkeks

And also totally screws over every inventive build that would work in the Underworld but would NEVER do so in a PVP Environment. Come one, how good will for example a geomancer tank do in PVP? Or a Hydromancer with Glyph of Concentration skilled on AoE Interruption? Those will simply get crushed and you'll head down there with the typical "Smiter" build. Great Idea.

But you wouldn't be playing 'typical' PvP builds. You'd be playing other UW teams, who are also tying to reach uw/fow. Neither team could re-skill after the battle, so you'd have to take the UW build into PvP. Your geomancer tank will do just as well as the other teams tank.

I don't see the problem, please explain.

Kampfkeks · Sep 15, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

nice attitude.

Don't flame me here, flame the community. Or have you closed your eyes on what is actually HAPPENING in PVP?

Example a:
Team joins
A: "Have fun and a fair match"
B: "LOOOL STFU NOOB; ME ROCKZ0RS!"

Example b:
A: "What skills did you bring?"
B: "I'm rank 9!!!!!!"
A: "Yes, i don't care, what skills did you bring?"
A: "Noobs!!!"
A Leaves

And this is VERY common in PVP with all the elitists around. To me this is clearly a display of a community of assholes. And the only way to avoid this bullshit is to not PVP at all. Did you understand it this time? It's not my attitude, it is the arrogant attitude of large amounts of the PVPers. If you didn't get it, look aroud in these forums and have a look as to who mainly is trying to bash others. Olé.
If you read in these words that ALL PVPers are assholes, you need to learn how to read and how to stop reading things that are not written.

Quote:

Once again ill state i am a PVE'r 90%, and i dont see why its always PVE vs PVP.

Because it is the both extreme sides and thus they are both compared in comparison.

Quote:

I think what Anet are trying to promote is PVE'rs to try PVP and visa versa to gain favor.

Let them do it then, how many of those that want to go into the UW did really try the Hall of Heroes to gain favor? I'd like to make an estimation that most PVErs who were excluded from the UW/FoW mostly quit the game.

Quote:

Grow up

Free speech, censorship and your wannabe try to flame me have nothing in common. Try again, try harder. But know that i don't care what you think of me and that i don't care if you get offended by a few words that got censored anyway. On a sidenote, also know that i am 34 years old, have a family, a wife and two small children. I've got a job which i'm very happy with. I'm 1,93 m large. Now where exactly should i grow up again? Maturity? I'm more mature than most. Size? Same here.

Quote:

But you wouldn't be playing 'typical' PvP builds. You'd be playing other UW teams, who are also tying to reach uw/fow. Neither team could re-skill after the battle, so you'd have to take the UW build into PvP. Your geomancer tank will do just as well as the other teams tank.

I don't see the problem, please explain.

It was an extreme example. It is just a fact that some builds do better in PVP than others. You do agree on that don't you? The same build that works in PVP won't probably work in PVE (like the invinci monk - they got literally shattered to death). Do you still agree?
The builds that would dominate in the fight would be those that are leaning into PVP. They would reach the Underworld as they were more fitting to the PVP Environment. But they won't stay down there for long as their build is less fitting in a PVE Environment.

Nonetheless, every concept that blocks out a specific build just because it is not able to compete with another party in PVP while it would be THE answer in PVE is just taking away from the freedom of choice.